我读到了什么？
1. What is the shadows?? 这个问题c,k,栗子，s, 壮都好像都有各自解答。我没有答案，只是找到Benjamin Jowett的这个版本里头的句子
He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?
在写shadows之前有段话
允许我搬运下
ALLAN版本
Someone dragged him away from there byforce along the rough, steep, upward way and did not let him go before he haddragged him out into the light of the sun, wouldn’t he be distressed andannoyed at being so dragged? And when he came to the light, wouldn’t he havehis eyes full of its beam and be unable to see even one of the things now saidto be true?
另外一个版本
And suppose once more, that he isreluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he isforced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained andirritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he willnot be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities.
翻译
“再说，如果有人硬拉他走上一条陡峭崎岖的坡道，直到把他拉出洞穴见到了外面的阳光，不让他中途退回去，他会觉得这样被强迫着走很痛苦，并且感到恼火；当他来到阳光下时，他会觉得眼前金星乱蹦金蛇乱串，以致无法看见任何一个现在被称为真实的事物的。你不认为会这样吗？
格：噢，的确不是一下子就能看得见的。
苏：因此我认为，要他能在洞穴外面的高处看得见东西，大概需要有一个逐渐习惯的过程。首先大概看阴影是最容易，其次要数看人和其他东西在水中的倒影容易，再次是看东西本身；经过这些之后他大概会觉得在夜里观察天象和天空本身，看月光和星光比白天看太阳和太阳光容易。
格：当然啰。
苏：[…]”
摘录来自:柏拉图(Plato).“理想国(商务汉译世界学术名著丛书)”。iBooks.
2. What is the function of educator? 教育工作者很热爱自主天资又好的学生，就像良田不用太多辛劳也能收获满满，但是好像谁说过，能把最调皮的娃娃教好才是好老师，更何况 英语当中有句话叫做For those who can't do,teach;for those who can't teach,teach gym.足以证明我当老师的疑惑，就是我的职责到底是啥？估计这个书给了点启示，enlightener?or Inspiration?? Maybe the answer is here
告知各位，其实每个个体学习能力都存在，是何时何地被何人唤醒而已，不知这个人是不是你的老师而已。the power and capacity of learning exists in the soul already;（然后我说下，我对比了两个英文版本allan和benjamin的，而且也贴了中文，权当我是个搬运工。而且对我而言benjamin的版本英文好读点）
ALLAN版本
We must hold the following about thesethings:education is not what the professions of certain men assert it to be.They presumably assert that they put into the soul knowledge that isn’tin it, as though they were putting sight into blind eyes.
另外一版本But then, if I am right, certain professors of education must bewrong when they say that they can put a knowledge into the soul which was notthere before, like sight into blind eyes.
“苏：如果这是正确的，那么关于这些事，我们就必须有如下的看法：教育实际上并不像某些人在自己的职业中所宣称的那样。他们宣称，他们能把灵魂里原来没有的知识灌输到灵魂里去，好像他们能把视力放进瞎子的眼睛里去似的。”
摘录来自:柏拉图(Plato).“理想国(商务汉译世界学术名著丛书)”。iBooks.
另外一版本Whereas,our argument shows that the power and capacity of learning exists in the soul already;and that just as the eye was unable toturn from darkness to light without the whole body, so too the instrument ofknowledge can only by the movement of the whole soul be turned from the worldof becoming into that of being, and learn by degrees to endure the sight ofbeing, and of the brightest and best of being, or in other words, of the good.
Allan版本
But the present argument, on the otherhand, I said, indicates that this power is in the soul of each, and that theinstrument with which each learns-just as an eye is not able to turn toward thelight from the dark without the whole body- must be turned around from thatwhichis coming into beingtogether with the whole soul until it is ableto endure looking at that which is and the brightest part of that which is. Andwe affirm that this is the good, don’t we?
翻译
“苏：但是我们现在的论证说明，知识是每个人灵魂里都有的一种能力，而每个人用以学习的器官就像眼睛。——整个身体不改变方向，眼睛是无法离开黑暗转向光明的。同样，作为整体的灵魂必须转离变化世界，直至它的“眼睛”得以正面观看实在，观看所有实在中最明亮者，即我们所说的善者。是这样吧？”
摘录来自:柏拉图(Plato).“理想国(商务汉译世界学术名著丛书)”。iBooks.
3. What is the difference between “coming into being “ vs “being“??
提这个问题是因为上任分享人的最后一句话让我不解
而且我并未有答案,而且我感觉很多时候，就像那个单词shadow或是coming into being或是being 随着这个单口相声的书的行进，感觉每次格附和一次赞同一次，即便同一个单词，又比上一个议题里谈论的更深一次。而且苏很黑的是，当我快看完这一整章节，才明白了这个study划分的意义所在。谈及这四个层面的原因在于four divisions; two for intellect and two for opinion, and to call thefirst division science, the second understanding, the third belief, and the fourth perception of shadows。这里再次出现perception of shadows让我不自觉联想起这一章开头提及的shadows.所以还原到第一个问题什么是shadows，我只能说没答案。
Study for the young
First study:calculation 算术
Second study: plane geometry平面几何
Third study: solid geometry立体几何
Fourth study: astronomy天体学
Why indeed, he said, when any name will dowhich expresses the thought of the mind with clearness?
At any rate, we are satisfied, as before,to have four divisions; two for intellect and two for opinion, and to call thefirst division science, the second understanding, the third belief, and the fourth perception of shadows, opinion being concerned with becoming, and intellect with being; and so to make a proportion:—
As being is to becoming, so is pureintellect to opinion. And as intellect is to opinion, so is science to belief,and understanding to the perception of shadows.
But let us defer the further correlationand subdivision of the subjects of opinion and of intellect, for it will be along enquiry, many times longer than this has been.
ALLAN版本
Just as before, to call the first partknowledge, the second thought, the third trust, and the fourth imagination; andthe latter two taken together, opinion, and the former two, intellection. Andopinion has to do with coming into being and intellection with being; and as being is to coming into being, so is intellection to opinion; and asintellection is to opinion, so is knowledge to trust and thought toimagination. But as for the proportion between the things over which these areset and the division into two parts of each- the opinable and the intelligible-let’s let that go, Glaucon,so as not to run afoul of arguments many timeslonger than those that have been gone through.
“那么让我们满足于前面用过的那些个名称吧，[12]把第一部分叫做知识，第二部分叫做理智，第三部分叫做信念，第四部分叫做想象；又把第三部分和第四部分合称意见，把第一部分和第二部分合称理性；意见是关于产生世界的，理性是关于实在的；理性和意见的关系就像实在和产生世界的关系，知识和信念的关系、理智和想象的关系也像理性和意见的关系。至于和这些灵魂状态对应的事物之间的关系，以及它们再各细分为两部分，能意见的部分和能理知的部分。这些问题，格劳孔，我们还是别去碰它吧，免得我们被卷进一场更长时间的辩论中去。”
摘录来自:柏拉图(Plato).“理想国(商务汉译世界学术名著丛书)”。iBooks.
4. Why the name of the book called THEREPUBLIC? 我只是有点点理解为啥这本书叫理想国，如果是self-taught 一拨人还好没义务责任回到下面，来协调管理city,但如果是另外一种情况也就是国家培养的就必须适应，从而更好管理国家。还有一点私人感想，这里所提及动political life并非我之前的偏见概念，读后刷新了这个term在我内心的地位。原来这确实是个伟大的事业。刷新三观关于Political life句子如下
who else will you compel to go to theguarding of the city than the men who are most prudent in those things throughwhich a city is best governed, and who have other honors and a better life thanthe political life?
下面继续搬运，满满看吧，各位。特意强调下这句that it ‘s not theconcern of law that any one class in the city as a whole, harmonizing the citizens by persuasion and compulsion, making them share with one another the benefit that each is able to bring to the commonwealth.
看到时候明白原来每个公民身上的不可推卸的social or republic responsibility 在这里有体现。
“苏：那么，格劳孔，你得看到，我们对我们之中出现的哲学家也不会是不公正的；我们强迫他们关心和护卫其他公民的主张也是公正的。我们将告诉他们：“哲学家生在别的国家中有理由拒不参加辛苦的政治工作，因为他们完全是自发地产生的，不是政府有意识地培养造就的；一切自力更生不是被培养而产生的人才不欠任何人的情，因而没有热切要报答培育之恩的心情，那是正当的。但是我们已经培养了你们——既为你们自己也为城邦的其他公民——做蜂房中的蜂王和领袖；你们受到了比别人更好更完全的教育，有更大的能力参加两种生活[2]。因此你们每个人在轮值时必须下去和”“其他人同住，习惯于观看模糊影像。须知，一经习惯你就会比他们看得清楚不知多少倍的，就能辨别各种不同的影子并且知道影子所反映的东西的，因为你已经看见过美者、正义者和善者的真实。因此我们的国家将被我们和你们清醒地管理着，而不是像如今的大多数国家那样被昏昏然地管理着，被那些为影子而互相殴斗，为权力——被当作最大的善者——而相互争吵的人统治着。事实是：在凡是被定为统治者的人最不热心权力的城邦里必定有最善最稳定的管理，凡有与此相反的统治者的城邦里其管理必定是最恶的。”
Observe, Glaucon, that there will be noinjustice in compelling our philosophers to have a care and providence ofothers; we shall explain to them that in other States, men of their class arenot obliged to share in the toils of politics: and this is reasonable, for theygrow up at their own sweet will, and the government would rather not have them.Being selftaught, they cannot be expected to show any gratitude for a culture which they have never received. But we have brought you into the world to be rulers of the hive, kings of yourselves and of the other citizens, and have educated you far better and more perfectly than they have been educated, and you are better able to share in the double duty. Wherefore each of you, whenhis turn comes, must go down to the general underground abode, and get thehabit of seeing in the dark. When you have acquired the habit, you will see tenthousand times better than the inhabitants of the den, and you will know whatthe several images are, and what they represent, because you have seen thebeautiful and just and good in their truth. And thus our State, which is alsoyours, will be a reality, and not a dream only, and will be administered in aspirit unlike that of other States, in which men fight with one another aboutshadows only and are distracted in the struggle for power, which in their eyesis a great good. Whereas the truth is that the State in which the rulers aremost reluctant to govern is always the best and most quietly governed, and theState in which they are most eager, the worst.
另外一版本You have again forgotten, my friend, I said, the intention of thelegislator, who did not aim at making any one class in the State happy abovethe rest; the happiness was to be in the whole State, and he held the citizenstogether by persuasion and necessity, making them benefactors of the State, andtherefore benefactors of one another; to this end he created them, not toplease themselves, but to be his instruments in binding up the State.
My friend, you have again forgotten, Isaid, that it ‘s not theconcern of law that any one class in the city as a whole, harmonizing the citizens by persuasion and compulsion, making them share with one another the benefit that each is able to bring to the commonwealth.
“苏：朋友，你又忘了，我们的立法不是为城邦任何一个阶级的特殊幸福，而是为了造成全国作为一个整体的幸福。它运用说服或强制，使全体公民彼此协调和谐，使他们把各自能向集体提供的利益让大家分享。而它在城邦里造就这样的人，其目的就在于让他们不致各行其是，把他们团结成为一个不可分的城邦公民集体。”
摘录来自:柏拉图(Plato).“理想国(商务汉译世界学术名著丛书)”。iBooks.
最后两点补充，一是翻译相关的，另外一个是漏了的英文
翻译很有意思的点
“so it seems,“ he said.翻译为“格：很可能有这种技巧。”
技巧在于肯定教育的功能时候同时用这个sight的类比
What studies have such a power?
Would be a study to draw the soul frombecoming to being? Weren’t we saying that it’s necessary for these men to be championsin war when they are young?
Whats the qualification of being achampions?
Our guardian is both warrior and philosopher
还有个问题，如下句中的一个短语：
This wouldn’t be theTwirling of a shell??but the turning of a soul around from a day that is like night tothe true day
典故easy?这里twirling of a shell 应是简单的意思？有典故么？因为我搜居然有这个小孩子的翻贝壳游戏。
居然差点忘了写读到这时候脑袋里就三个字：敬畏感
他用的词是craftsman of heaven来代指creator
原始句子allan版本这样写he will hold that the craftsman of heaven composed it and whats in it as beautifully as such works can be composed
Motion, I said, has many forms, and not one only; two of them are obvious enough even to wits no better than ours; and there are others, as I imagine, which may be left to wiser persons.
But where are the two?
There is a second, I said, which is the counterpart of the one already named. And what may that be?
The second, I said, would seem relatively to the ears to be what the first is to the eyes; for I conceive that as the eyes are designed to look up at the stars, so are the ears to hear harmonious motions; and these are sister sciences—as the Pythagoreans say, and we, Glaucon, agree with them?
“苏：照我看，运动不是只有一种而是有多种。列举所有运动种类这或许是哲人的事情，但即使是我们，也能说出其中两种来。
格：哪两种？
苏：一是刚才说的这个天文学，另一是和它成对的东西。
格：是什么呢？
苏：我认为我们可以说，正如眼睛是为天文而造的那样，我们的耳朵是为和谐的声音而造的；这两个学科，正如毕达哥拉斯派所主张，我们也赞同的那样，格劳孔，它们是兄弟学科。对吗？”
摘录来自: 柏拉图 (Plato). “理想国 (商务汉译世界学术名著丛书)”。 iBooks.
